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Evolutz

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21

Dienstag, 11. Juli 2006, 16:28

agnostic

Well, I am an agnostic.

And all I wanted to epress is that people to me are more important than animals.

And yeah, I do know about all the stuff you mentioned.
(Franz von Assisi the great friend of birds, the ecological/economic advantages of vegetarian nutrition)...

But can you agree with this sentence of Kurt Bayertz :
"Moral in determinated biologically." ???

Moral has evolved and still keeps on evolving just like everything else.
"I myself am pursueing the same instinctive course as the veriest human animal you can think of - I am however young, starring at particles of light in the midst of great darkness." (John Keats)

22

Dienstag, 11. Juli 2006, 17:49

RE: agnostic

Zitat

Originally posted by Evolutz
Well, I am an agnostic.

And all I wanted to epress is that people to me are more important than animals.

And yeah, I do know about all the stuff you mentioned.
(Franz von Assisi the great friend of birds, the ecological/economic advantages of vegetarian nutrition)...

But can you agree with this sentence of Kurt Bayertz :
"Moral in determinated biologically." ???

Moral has evolved and still keeps on evolving just like everything else.


And all I wanted to say is that animals deserve respect as much as ppl (some ppl).

Morality is based on pure compassion, when you can identify yourself with another person (animal) without any egoistic reasons, it's sth that cannot be calculated, cause every calculation is egoistic (and what is egoistic is not moral). That kind of morality works as and is an instinct. And instinct is sth that all animals have including human race (tho the indication of it is rare, maternity is the most common).

Because ppl have reason and speach (a bit more complicated than other animals on different stages), they started to name everything what happen around and within them. So when they started to try describe morality by notions, they've created sth that is called Ethics (and this is sth that evolves)... for the years it has evolved into lots of rules (human rights, animal rights, religious rules etc). Tho, most of the religious ethics are far away from morality, simply because they are overcalculated till that degree that to make ppl act right they need to prise or punish them... - so they put you in a situation as you were not able to act right without an egoistic reason (that's why they see all non believers as devils!) - and we all know how bad this can end (Inquisitions... etc). However Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism... are doing fine treating ppl and other animals equally with no problem (I'd call it the best emotionally civilised religion, I wish the ethics was more common for the western way of thinking). But even in the Bible there are a few suggestions/predictions that: the time of an ideal world will come, the world where nobody will kill anyone and all become vegetarians; eating meat is an indication of weakness (it's somewhere in the Book of Isaiah).

Human is the most complicated animal and so his reason is more complicated but the only fuction it really has is the possibility to create stronger motivations (in mind) to act. The difference of the degree of complication between creatures cannot be valued, cause being more complicated organism does not directly mean "being better".
See the World in My Eyes:


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Atma« (12. Juli 2006, 16:24)


23

Mittwoch, 12. Juli 2006, 10:10

"We owe respect to the Nature in general, without Her gifts we'd be nothing... (...) respect every drop of water."

- Caldera



(the heat is like a murderer, and if I didn't drink dozen bottles of water I'd be dead by now indeed..., I'm longing for thunderstorm...)
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Evolutz

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24

Mittwoch, 12. Juli 2006, 16:48

@Atma : If you ask me I ´d like to cite a part a covenant -songtext :
"We are masters of self-deception."

Morality is always calculating.

I share your sympathy towards buddhism (I was a bit into it at the age of 15).
But it´s also a very good example of how circumstances/nature changes or
dominates even morality. Buddhism wasn´t invented in the Himalaya but in India.
Nevertheless it became the dominating morality there (as it is less a religion than
a philosophy). So why? What do we find in the Himalaya? Yes, big mountains,
ice, snow, many many stones, glaciers ... no forests, meadows, ressources:
So: is it that surprising, that a kind of morality evolves and finally dominates in a region where there is nothing big to own - a philosphy that is based upon imma-
terialism - and transcendence (not surprising either if you´ve ever seen pictures
of these great mountains, valleys etc.). And finally what is the best thing to do
in a surrounding with hardly any surplus of nutrition : meditation (the best way to
keep your strength / energy).
Nowadays it is quite interesting to cling tl buddhism, because we can´t handle
the immenduous varieties of products, media, people that that try to catch our
attention.
It is an interesting fact that the most growing confession (?) in Berlin is:

no, it´s not! the Islam...

buddhism, because there so many students in this town who discover buddhism as an alternative to the normal, bourgois background and way of living -
but to me it´s just a style-thing - I can´t take them serious.

As far as the homo sapiens sapiens is concerned:
Just take a look on any kind of population in nature : organisms have more advan-
tages if they more evolutional opportunities if they are complex and and if you can
find many different phenotypes (?).

And I guess the term "better" is not a term of evolution. Maybe "adapted" would
be better. And man has conquered the whole planet (we could even survive in
the antarctic) and has the possibility to "go where no one has gone before".






- We are servants of our genes. -
"I myself am pursueing the same instinctive course as the veriest human animal you can think of - I am however young, starring at particles of light in the midst of great darkness." (John Keats)

25

Mittwoch, 12. Juli 2006, 19:25

PS. Christians, Muslims and also Jews have their visions of ideal world (Eden) where all leaving creatures're eating only plants, and don't kill eachother. So somehow they are aware that killing in general is not good. Shame that ppl have problems with practicing it, most theologists see it as a weakness (as I said before). The general similarities seem to have their roots in morality, the way of interpretation belongs to Ethics. I gave the sample of Buddhism (+) cause there the practice is more visible, tho, some of the buddhists eat meat and wear skins, but only of the animals that died accidentally or naturally.

As I said I'm an atheist. I'm listen to my own conscience. As a little girl I spent a lot of time in a country side, and I saw how bad animals were treated. E.g.: as a 10 year old child I'd seen how men were killing a little cow in front of her mothers eyes (enough to say that for the next few weeks the mother was not able to eat anything, didn't give milk, and was screaming loud... the scream that I will never forget, like I'll never forget the little cow's head cut off lying on the dirty ground looking at me...). And I know that what I saw was not right (even tho, for all the others it wasn't a big deal). Since then I've seen lots of worse things that man can do, and frankly speaking sometimes I'm ashamed of being part of the race. I don't want to be blind for animals' suffering (ppl's as well). I've lived with animals for my whole life, I think I know them, (and I want to learn more about them). And I know that there is one thing that for sure differs ppl from other animals: viciousness. Animals are free from the defect.

We are different ppl, we see things in a different way. For me more important is to let the animals live (watch them, learn from them) than to feed my stomach with their bodies, especially that there is so many other things I can eat. I'm not judging anyone (tho it's very hard sometimes); it's a matter of a particular conscience. Sth we were born with, sth we may want or be able to discover in ourselves or not.



See the World in My Eyes:


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Atma« (12. Juli 2006, 21:12)


26

Donnerstag, 13. Juli 2006, 12:27

“Sometimes apparent resemblance of character will bring two people together and for a certain time unite them. But their mistake gradually becomes evident, and they are astonished to find themselves not only far apart, but even repelled, in some sort, at all their points of contact.”

- Chamfort
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Evolutz

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27

Donnerstag, 13. Juli 2006, 17:04

Besitz ist die tatsächliche, Eigentum die rechtliche Herrschaftsmacht.

In diesem Sinne : zurück zu den Lernbüchern! :rolleyes:
"I myself am pursueing the same instinctive course as the veriest human animal you can think of - I am however young, starring at particles of light in the midst of great darkness." (John Keats)

28

Donnerstag, 13. Juli 2006, 22:14

“Where I am, I don't know, I'll never know, in the silence you don't know, you must go on, I can't go on, I'll go on...”

- Samuel Beckett
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29

Freitag, 14. Juli 2006, 11:27

“I only go out to get me a fresh appetite for being alone.”

- Lord Byron
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Evolutz

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30

Freitag, 14. Juli 2006, 18:31

Oh, I forgot : animals do have rights in Germany :

Well. Maybe someone of you has got a "BGB" . Look after §§961 ff.
It´s about the rights to catch a bee-tribe after it has eccaped and so on...

this is serious:

http://www.saarcarnica.com/Buecher/Das_Bienenrecht.htm
"I myself am pursueing the same instinctive course as the veriest human animal you can think of - I am however young, starring at particles of light in the midst of great darkness." (John Keats)

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Evolutz« (14. Juli 2006, 18:34)


31

Freitag, 14. Juli 2006, 19:12

Talking about animal rights in Germany...:

"Germany has become the first European nation to vote to guarantee animal rights in its constitution.

A majority of lawmakers in the Bundestag voted on Friday to add "and animals" to a clause that obliges the state to respect and protect the dignity of humans.

The main impact of the measure will be to restrict the use of animals in experiments.

In the end 543 lawmakers in Germany's lower house of parliament voted in favour of giving animals constitutional rights. Nineteen voted against it and 15 abstained.

The vote is expected to be approved by the Bundesrat upper house this summer.

Article 20a of the German Basic Law will then read: "The state takes responsibility for protecting the natural foundations of life and animals in the interest of future generations."

The issue had been keenly debated among German politicians for almost 10 years.

Animals in Germany already are protected through legislation defining the conditions in which they can be held in captivity, but activists claimed it did not go far enough to control the use of animals in research.

With the new measure, the federal constitutional court will have to weigh animals' rights against other entrenched rights, like those to conduct research or practice religion. This could translate bring tighter restrictions on the use of animals for testing cosmetics or nonprescription drugs.

Consumer Affairs Minister Renate Kunast, a member of the environmentalist Greens party that has lobbied for many years to bring animal rights into the constitution, welcomed the change as groundbreaking, but emphasised it would not diminish human rights.

Conservative parliament members had previously opposed the constitutional changes, arguing that it could put the interests of animals before those of humans and be particularly damaging to Germany's research industry.

Animal rights activists say they will use the constitutional changes to try and end to what they say are unduly long transport routes for animals.

Lawmakers said the government will also look at targeting more research funding to projects that seek alternatives to using animals for conducting experiments."

(it took place im May 2002)

(this report is from CNN/BBC)

You underestimate your country, Evolutz.... ;)
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Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Atma« (14. Juli 2006, 19:19)


32

Freitag, 14. Juli 2006, 20:27

@evolutz & atma
please stay on topic! the name of the thread is "thought of the day" not "animal rights"! ;)

33

Freitag, 14. Juli 2006, 20:38

Zitat

Originally posted by covenant_girl
@evolutz & atma
please stay on topic! the name of the thread is "thought of the day" not "animal rights"! ;)


Sure... But some thoughts are inspiring... ;)
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34

Samstag, 15. Juli 2006, 11:12

“Beauty is no quality in things themselves: it exists merely in the mind which contemplates them.”

- David Hume
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Evolutz

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35

Samstag, 15. Juli 2006, 18:45

Some animals are more equal than others. George Orwell : "animal farm"

@covenant_girl : hey, that´s philosophy!

The same goes for humans : "Some people are more equal than others."

(Especially if they can afford a real good lawyer or if they´ re politicians).

Macht korrumpiert, totale Macht korrumpiert total. :-]
"I myself am pursueing the same instinctive course as the veriest human animal you can think of - I am however young, starring at particles of light in the midst of great darkness." (John Keats)

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Evolutz« (15. Juli 2006, 18:49)


36

Samstag, 15. Juli 2006, 18:49

Zitat

Originally posted by Evolutz
Some animals are more equal than others.


destructive ... ;)
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Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Atma« (15. Juli 2006, 20:30)


37

Samstag, 15. Juli 2006, 20:20

Zitat

Originally posted by Evolutz

The same goes for humans : "Some people are more equal than others."

(Especially if they can afford a real good lawyer or if they´ re politicians)


... lol
See the World in My Eyes:


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Atma« (15. Juli 2006, 20:22)


38

Samstag, 15. Juli 2006, 20:21

“All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry.”

- Edgar Allan Poe
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Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Atma« (15. Juli 2006, 23:11)


39

Samstag, 15. Juli 2006, 23:21

“It took me years to understand that words are often as important as experience, because words make experience last.”

“'The past is not dead, it is living in us, and will be alive in the future which we are now helping to make.”

- William Morris
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40

Sonntag, 16. Juli 2006, 13:06

"Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right."

- Arthur Schopenhauer (a cosmopolitan) :)
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