official Covenant Forum

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Originally posted by Bugs

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Originally posted by lushmachine
Let's touch back to the subject: Anyone here seen Daniel play with Covenant before and willing to share how he impacted/changed the performace? Watching Clas on stage was extremely entertaining so I wonder what Daniel will do to get my attention! Eskil's great and all but I like having a choice of who to watch on stage. Keeps me from singing too much.

I believe you'll be singing more

:cry:

I may be an Eskil groupie, but I had no idea what he looked like until I saw him in concert in October. I love the music of Covenant, but I love the meaning to the lyics more than the music. I think that some people are being somewhat harsh.

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Original von Marci
I may be an Eskil groupie, but I had no idea what he looked like until I saw him in concert in October. I love the music of Covenant, but I love the meaning to the lyics more than the music. I think that some people are being somewhat harsh.

I’m buying CDs from In Strict Confidence just because I like the artwork of the covers. I hardly ever listen to them because I don’t like most of their music at all. So does that mean I’m an artwork-groupie?

To me it doesn't matter if someone likes the melodies, bass lines, lyrics or the appearance of the lead singer or anything else best.
What really counts is that people love a band and enjoy their art.
Art is more than pure music.
Yes, Eskil has got a great voice and a beautiful face. Why should admiring his face be more superficial than admiring his voice? He has both by nature. If his singing is art, than why should his fashion style not be considered art too?
And even if it’s not – who cares?

(Besides I don’t think that hundreds of men and women would pay entrance to watch Eskil sitting on stage, doing nothing but looking good. Correct me if I’m wrong.)

I may be weighing in kinda late on this... but in California we have a rather active goth/industrial/ebm scene... I know since I am one of the DJ's in the Northern California scene... we have a CD vendor that come out to the clubs around here who is from Europe (Americans - go to this website www.copint.com) and gets us the latest and greatest in the music from Europe - but we also have many exciting bands from the US as well - The Cruxshadows, Assemblage 23, Imperative Reaction, System Syn, Iris - just to name a few off the top of my head!

I think that the reason that the music got lost over here is because after the end of the New Wave era of the 1980's American audiences were subjected to the twin horrors that are rap and grunge, while the european scene remained on the electronic path... But the US is coming around to this music slowly but surely! Recently the Cruxshadows had a song (sophia) go to #1r on the Billboard Dance Charts (knocking off Beyonce, hehehe) and #7 on the Hot 100 chart. Covenant saw Ritual Noise go as high as #23 on the same chart. VNV Nation played a number of sold out shows in America 2 years ago and had 5 shows in California alone. At a recent special appearance in LA - tickets for VNV Nation sold out in less than 24 hours - the show was awesome too!!!

That's my two cents!!!

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Originally posted by kleineRatte
To me it doesn't matter if someone likes the melodies, bass lines, lyrics or the appearance of the lead singer or anything else best.
What really counts is that people love a band and enjoy their art.
Art is more than pure music.
Yes, Eskil has got a great voice and a beautiful face. Why should admiring his face be more superficial than admiring his voice? He has both by nature. If his singing is art, than why should his fashion style not be considered art too?
And even if it’s not – who cares?

(Besides I don’t think that hundreds of men and women would pay entrance to watch Eskil sitting on stage, doing nothing but looking good. Correct me if I’m wrong.)

Noticing good looks isn't superficial, it's human. I agree with you. And I certainly don't mind if my gaze happens to rest on someone who's easy on the eyes.

I'm just arguing my opinion that the happenstance of good genetics doesn't have anything to do with the art as far as music is concerned. Not everyone has a good voice for singing, but voices can be trained- and being it's used as an active vehicle for this particular kind of art, I think it is completely different than a beautiful face in this context.

If someone has a beautiful face, I'm going to notice it (and enjoy it) regardless of if they're in a band or not; or onstage in front of me or not. But a beautiful face is incidental, whereas the music is deliberate. Music is created, I mean, while genetics are pure luck (though some have more to work with than others). Same with fashion sense- that's constructed too, like the music. Of course someone's sense of style is expressed via fashion, hair, etc, and I don't think it's superficial to appreciate that.

In my little Holley-reality, I *do* think it's superficial to appreciate that *more* than the art that is being created, but I want to stress that I don't and didn't assume that that is what you are doing. I don't think you are, in fact.

I think merely that you see the package as a gestalt, and I see the sum of the parts.


Just my way of looking at things. It's also probably due to the fact that the word "groupie" has very negative connotations.

Hmm, I hope I'm expressing myself clearly; I'm worried that I'm not.

Watch- I'll probably be later in the car driving, listening to Covenant, and then suddenly think "Ohhhhh, I should have said *this* to best illustrate what I meant!"

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Originally posted by niki_6784Recently the Cruxshadows had a song (sophia) go to #1r on the Billboard Dance Charts (knocking off Beyonce, hehehe) and #7 on the Hot 100 chart. Covenant saw Ritual Noise go as high as #23 on the same chart. VNV Nation played a number of sold out shows in America 2 years ago and had 5 shows in California alone. At a recent special appearance in LA - tickets for VNV Nation sold out in less than 24 hours - the show was awesome too!!!

That's my two cents!!!

I was *astonished* that Cruexshadows got to #1 on Billboard. It's kind of surreal, considering how compartmentalized the genres tend to be here.

@ilex:
Don't be worried, Holly, I think we understand each other.
If I sounded somewhat angry, I certainly wasn’t angry with you. People can’t always have the same opinion, right?

I agree with you, people should be more adored for what they do and less for what they are by nature. I’m afraid we have reached an almost philosophical level now. :cool:

What I meant was… hm, for example, I’m quite good at drawing. Of course I have practiced a lot and all, but mainly it’s just a gift. Of course I’m happy if someone likes my paintings, but I’m not proud of the talent itself (yet I do adore painters who got more talent than I have).
It's just the same with voices to me. When I love them, I adore them.

You could even extend this on someone’s ability to work hard. Some can do it and some can't.

Perhaps it was a little risqué to compare fashion with music directly. But by the way, I wouldn't adore Eskil as much as I do if he used to wear jogging pants.

But your statement:

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Original von ilex011I think merely that you see the package as a gestalt, and I see the sum of the parts.

is quite excellent. I think that’s the point.
I tend to see things as a whole – so maybe this explains also why I like MM. Nothing he does is extraordinary in itself, but I like the mixture.

edit:
I forgot do say something about the Cruxshadows and their No. 1 hit.
Maybe it was an error? Something had been counted double?
Anyway it's nice that they reached it. Even with that song.

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Originally posted by kleineRatte
Perhaps it was a little risqué to compare fashion with music directly. But by the way, I wouldn't adore Eskil as much as I do if he used to wear jogging pants.

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I forgot do say something about the Cruxshadows and their No. 1 hit.
Maybe it was an error? Something had been counted double?
Anyway it's nice that they reached it. Even with that song.

Oh my goodness, I would have loved to put some jogging pants on The Cruxshadows when they were in town recently. Putting aside the fact that I don't adore their music (it's okay, definitely a universe better than Beyonce) the girls were on stage in thongs and teeny mini shirts.

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Originally posted by lushmachine

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Originally posted by kleineRatte
Perhaps it was a little risqué to compare fashion with music directly. But by the way, I wouldn't adore Eskil as much as I do if he used to wear jogging pants.

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I forgot do say something about the Cruxshadows and their No. 1 hit.
Maybe it was an error? Something had been counted double?
Anyway it's nice that they reached it. Even with that song.

Oh my goodness, I would have loved to put some jogging pants on The Cruxshadows when they were in town recently. Putting aside the fact that I don't adore their music (it's okay, definitely a universe better than Beyonce) the girls were on stage in thongs and teeny mini shirts.

Jogging pants are comfy. Didn't see any at the Cruexshadows/Ego Likeness/Ayria show I went to last Saturday night though. Or overt Beyonce fans either.

Tangentially, this does remind me of something from a long time ago when a friend of mine was horrified to see Laibach at an afterparty, hanging out laughing and wearing normal clothes and Birkenstocks. I said "What, you expect them to be Laibach-y all the time?!?"

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Original von ilex011

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Originally posted by lushmachine

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Originally posted by kleineRatte
Perhaps it was a little risqué to compare fashion with music directly. But by the way, I wouldn't adore Eskil as much as I do if he used to wear jogging pants.

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I forgot do say something about the Cruxshadows and their No. 1 hit.
Maybe it was an error? Something had been counted double?
Anyway it's nice that they reached it. Even with that song.

Oh my goodness, I would have loved to put some jogging pants on The Cruxshadows when they were in town recently. Putting aside the fact that I don't adore their music (it's okay, definitely a universe better than Beyonce) the girls were on stage in thongs and teeny mini shirts.

Jogging pants are comfy. Didn't see any at the Cruexshadows/Ego Likeness/Ayria show I went to last Saturday night though. Or overt Beyonce fans either.

Tangentially, this does remind me of something from a long time ago when a friend of mine was horrified to see Laibach at an afterparty, hanging out laughing and wearing normal clothes and Birkenstocks. I said "What, you expect them to be Laibach-y all the time?!?"

Maybe the so-called clothes of the girls had an influence on reaching the top of the charts. Spoken in confidence, my husband would be quite disappointed if they would start to wear much more.
Don't get me wrong. Eskil may wear jogging pants whenever he likes to - as long as he’s not on stage. I'm quite generous, don’t you think? :lol:

could you all please stay on topic?

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Originally posted by ilex011

I'd really like to hear lush's and erichazann's pov on this...

Fck if I know. ;p

I used to work at promo agency (not music tho)... and I don't think it is simply just a licensing issue like Sharon stated (although that is a big contributing factor). I just think this genre of music on small labels can't compete with the "big guns" out there with their huge promotional budgets and what not. And that's what it's about. I don't see the music being all that much different than what was really popular with the New Wave era.. or that much different than some popular gothy music now. The people who are popular just have better (or more) people working to promote them...

Covenant had the opportunity with NL and being on a big name label, but as we know, Sony killed of KA2 and they (Cov) never got the chance to really make the most of it.

America is a *huge* market.. and that's the problem. Americans aren't going to go looking for the good stuff, they want it to come to them. I don't think you can be a success here organically.. you need all the publicists and "crew" on the back end pushing your stuff to mainstream audiences.

For as much as I really don't like rap music and a lot of what is about.. they are f'ing geniuses in regards to the "street team" concept. Free publicity by people who love the music. Genius.

Also, I think it has a bit to do with the ideology of Industrial music in general. It's a lot like Punk in the "f the establishment" sort of way. A lot of artists don't seek out commercial success, but rather are just happy to be able to be successful enough to put out their CDs and tour.

In contrast.. I think with a lot of Rap music labels and artists.. it's all about making the most money possible.. and doing anything to get it.

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Originally posted by ilex011

Aaand then there's NYC, where Albion was apparently closed *again!* But being it's NYC there's always stuff to do.

Heh. I didn't even know that. But I rarely go out anymore ;\

But I guess it's very cut-throat here. Club/venue owners will go with the nights that make them the most money, end of story.

I was reading on another board about people now going to LI and Jersey. HA. I.WILL.NEVER. Although, the Abstration night that the dude from Case of Gretta Conners runs looks cool, it's just a transportation nightmare and who wants to make it home from there at 4am. I can barely be arsed to take the subway home like I was when I was youngin'.. it's all about taxis now.

There really isn't a suitable place for live music now either. I heard that Cruxshadows played at the Pyramid club.. the place is teenie! Not what you would expect from someone with a #1 song!

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Originally posted by erichazann

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Originally posted by ilex011

Aaand then there's NYC, where Albion was apparently closed *again!* But being it's NYC there's always stuff to do.

Heh. I didn't even know that. But I rarely go out anymore ;\

But I guess it's very cut-throat here. Club/venue owners will go with the nights that make them the most money, end of story.

I was reading on another board about people now going to LI and Jersey. HA. I.WILL.NEVER. Although, the Abstration night that the dude from Case of Gretta Conners runs looks cool, it's just a transportation nightmare and who wants to make it home from there at 4am. I can barely be arsed to take the subway home like I was when I was youngin'.. it's all about taxis now.

There really isn't a suitable place for live music now either. I heard that Cruxshadows played at the Pyramid club.. the place is teenie! Not what you would expect from someone with a #1 song!

*The first thing that popped into my mind when I heard about Albion Batcave closing was "Hmm, guess Pyramid will take up the slack now", being they do a lot of new wave/deathrock/gay disco/horror punk stuff lately, on different nights of the week. I think it's just the nature of *any* business to be cut-throat... people tend to forget that part of the music world and the club scene- it's very much a business and is about profitability... though I don't think Albion closed due to lack of interest by any means- that place was always packed. The usual "mismanagement of funds" thing I guess. But I'm sure it'll re-open... then close again, then re-open... ad infinitum...

*LI- as in, Long Island?!??

*No place for live music? Why, it's NYC for goodness' sake! Surely there must be some venue available for when Covenant next tours with Daniel Myer!

(I had to mention that last part to make sure this stays on topic. )


I think VNV/And One are playing there at Irving Plaza in April. Came very close to going but can't get the time off.

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Original von Black_Cat
could you all please stay on topic?

Someone with moderator's rights here should have the pragmatism to split the thread.

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Originally posted by ilex011

*No place for live music? Why, it's NYC for goodness' sake! Surely there must be some venue available for when Covenant next tours with Daniel Myer!

I think VNV/And One are playing there at Irving Plaza in April. Came very close to going but can't get the time off.

Oh duh. Yeah, there is Irving Plaza. It's actually very nice!

Yes. Long Island, as LI.

From my understanding, the time before last (kinda recently) Albion was not really closing.. it was just hype because Downtime (the venue) was changing ownership.. or it moved nights or something. Big deal. Now, it has closed because the new owners are jerks.. I don't know if they purposely were jerks to get Albion to leave so they could bring in a more profitable night, or if they are just jerks in general. *shrug*

Yes Pyramid is big into the 80s/wave/gay thingie. We used to go there... eekk. 7 years ago?? for Exodus? Can't recall.. but one friday night we had less than 100 peeps.. the gay night on sat. had over 500.. guess what? no more goth night!

Sorry for being offtopic, but at least it's not about sweat pants! ;o

And I hope by the time Covenant comes back to NY for their next full tour, Clas will be back.

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Originally posted by Niggels

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Original von Black_Cat
could you all please stay on topic?

Someone with moderator's rights here should have the pragmatism to split the thread.

To be honest. It's kind of a drag to be constantly smacked for being kinda OT. As long as it is not cluttering up the Official Covenant info threads or is not personal banter back and forth.. I don't see the prob. There is hardly any discussions in English and constantly being told to shut up doesn't really help.

Maybe this should have been posted in Gossip in the first place and then it would be ok?

Maybe it's because most of the mods are German and you like it orderly? And most of the offenders are American and we love freedom? :tongue:

*Bush Impersonation* Why do you hate freedom?

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Original von erichazann

Maybe it's because most of the mods are German and you like it orderly? And most of the offenders are American and we love freedom? :tongue:

*Bush Impersonation* Why do you hate freedom?

Because freedom is so untidy!

To prevent international involvements we should start a new topic at "Gossip" where we can just chat a bit, shouldn't we?

edit:
More room for gossip!

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Original von Niggels

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Original von Black_Cat
could you all please stay on topic?

Someone with moderator's rights here should have the pragmatism to split the thread.

I would do if I had the time to read this mass of postings...

i've changed the subject and moved the thread. please feel free to continue the discussion.