official Covenant Forum

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Originally posted by Meriadoc
Maybe my opinion sounds intolerant, right! But making a Covenant fanatic out of me, who was expecting a solo show of Eskil in Covenant style, is quite unfair and untrue.
I was´nt expecting a thing. I´m open minded to many styles of music, but for me it should have at last a glimpse of melody and rhythm.

I say this respectfully to you and with no intended offence- the last part of your statement very much indicates that you certainly *did* have expectations. And it's fine to have expectations, I don't think anyone is faulting you for that or for holding your particular tastes.

But to say definitively that a noise project *should* have this or that when it comes across that you don't even like the genre to begin with seems a little judgmental. To put it another way, I'm not going to go to a Britney Spears show and complain that she isn't using a Moog or that her music should be more intellectually challenging. That isn't what top 40 music is for. I mean, I can state that I can't stand her music but I can't state that she should be doing this or that when my basis of comparison is not level to begin with.

I hope that makes sense...

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Originally posted by Vorbedacht
am I the only one who noticed that Feedback and Theremin were fairly noisier live last year?

Nope.

I want to add a little opinion from me:
As I haven't seen Covenant live yet, but got a lot great impressions told by my girlfriend (Marishka) have seen pictures and heard live-recordings, I would expect everything else - as Covenant sounds like - from any of their side-projects.
Even I wouldn't expect, that they're standing on stage with their suits 'cause this is Covenant and not 20Hz, Cement or any of the others.

I have to agree with Joakim as he wrote this:

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Original von Joakim
It would be rather pointless for us to make side projects that sound like Covenant, wouldn't it? The idea of a side project is after all to explore things and ideas that don't fit under the "main" project.

Closing I want to say, that I'll give them (the projects) a chance to tickle my auditory nerv and I'm happy that they're bringing new sounds into the world which aren't to similar with Covenant.

Thank you for your attention.

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Originally posted by Joakim
What I meant was that the type of music that Eskil makes with Cement is:...
b) music that doesn't give itself lightly. Good noise music is more than just noise, if it wasn't it wouldn't be music after all. It's a kind of riddle or a quest. It's up to you to find meaning and order in it. Or decide not to.

Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. I'd add also that good noise music requires active listening, rather than passive, which is what I think you were getting at. You have to meet it halfway, so to speak. But if you take the time to do that and give it a chance, you'll find layers, hidden textures, and subtle, meticulous syncopations that actually take a lot of intuition and skill to create. You have to pay very active attention as to what is going on in the piece.

But once you get into the mindframe of that, specifically *listening* and processing the many different layers of a good piece carefully, the piece does become more accessible as you begin to understand what's going on and why. There is a *lot* going on underneath the initial surface. But you have to make an effort to submerge yourself as well to meet it- that's just the nature of good noise/drone/experimental. It doesn't hand itself over to you like, say, your standard song does.

I saw the Cement video clip and liked what I heard very much. I thought it was extremely well-crafted- the little I heard, mind you.
I'd suggest people listen to it again, *trying* to pay attention to the different layers and textures he's using and then see how you like it. You might still not, and that's fine too- at least you made a proper effort, ha ha... of course it isn't the same as being there live in the audience or listening to a recording, but I don't think he would have chosen/authorised/whatever the clip to be shown if he didn't think it was an accurate representation.

I found it helpful while listening to the clip to not *watch* the clip because the wobbly camera was distracting. I listened to it but didn't watch it. I found I could pay more attention to the layers of the piece that way. Your mileage may vary of course.


(sorry for dominating this thread tonight, by the way. :sch: )

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Originally posted by lushmachine
I think perhaps part of the reaction at SAMA was that some of the audience saw their beloved duckling (Eskil) come on stage and found he was growling rather than quacking.

:lol: The mental images! Sounds like something worthy of a Photoshop... (Oh noes!)

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Originally posted by kleineRatte

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Original von ilex011
So, I personally was thrilled when I discovered Eskil's side project was noise-oriented. I assumed that the name "Cement" possibly referred to Musique concrète, with its repetitive tape loops. Which alone gives a strong indication as to the tone of the project. I could be wrong- just my assumption. But I certainly didn't assume it was going to be traditionally melodic or even have elements of Covenant in it.

I assumed Eskil chose this name because cement is a liquid material that dries up quickly and becomes lasting, hard and motionless. Matches with my impression of Noise in general. I like it. Listening to Noise can be a very contemplative and meditative way to spend your time.

That too, and I agree.

And yeah, I also must add- Lush's duckling metaphor was spot on and made me smile as well.

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Originally posted by ilex011
Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. I'd add also that good noise music requires active listening, rather than passive, which is what I think you were getting at. You have to meet it halfway, so to speak. But if you take the time to do that and give it a chance, you'll find layers, hidden textures, and subtle, meticulous syncopations that actually take a lot of intuition and skill to create. You have to pay very active attention as to what is going on in the piece.

But once you get into the mindframe of that, specifically *listening* and processing the many different layers of a good piece carefully, the piece does become more accessible as you begin to understand what's going on and why. There is a *lot* going on underneath the initial surface. But you have to make an effort to submerge yourself as well to meet it- that's just the nature of good noise/drone/experimental. It doesn't hand itself over to you like, say, your standard song does.

I agree with this almost entirely. I find that friends of mine who don't enjoy Noise express they feel like they get lost within the dominant elements of the sounds. Like missing the forest for the trees.

It also helps to be exposed to a variety of Noise so that it doesn't all sound the same. For instance, I enjoy noise that sounds more mechanical and metallic, so my ears tend to be better at criticizing something I like and have heard lots of.

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Originally posted by ilex011
I saw the Cement video clip and liked what I heard very much. I thought it was extremely well-crafted- the little I heard, mind you.
I'd suggest people listen to it again, *trying* to pay attention to the different layers and textures he's using and then see how you like it. You might still not, and that's fine too- at least you made a proper effort, ha ha... of course it isn't the same as being there live in the audience or listening to a recording, but I don't think he would have chosen/authorised/whatever the clip to be shown if he didn't think it was an accurate representation.

I found it helpful while listening to the clip to not *watch* the clip because the wobbly camera was distracting. I listened to it but didn't watch it. I found I could pay more attention to the layers of the piece that way. Your mileage may vary of course.

Again, I agree, especially that it would not have been authorized for release if Eskil felt it was too poor. Not looking at the image did indeed help, that's exactly what I did my first listen. Then I watched and flashed back to a show with Black Dice I went to a few years ago, so I closed the browser window again.

Mind you, I'm odd in that I don't watch music videos regularly since about 1990. Since then, I've seen less than a dozen music videos. I prefer to have my own mental visual when it comes to audio. I'd much rather enjoy album artwork or see a live performance. Can you tell I grew up without MTV?

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Originally posted by ilex011(sorry for dominating this thread tonight, by the way. :sch: )

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Although I do understand the feeling. Sometimes I feel impolite to keep writing, especially when I hope not to offend anyone with my opinions.

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Originally posted by michelem31

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Originally posted by lushmachine
I think perhaps part of the reaction at SAMA was that some of the audience saw their beloved duckling (Eskil) come on stage and found he was growling rather than quacking.

:lol: The mental images! Sounds like something worthy of a Photoshop... (Oh noes!)

Glad my metaphor was effective!

I like metaphors ... it's the philospher within me. The monks of Eiheiji would be proud.

As Ronan Harris says: "Sweden, the home of aesthetics."
Minimal and Noise aren´t my favorites, but surely there can be big art,
even though there isn´t much to hear at all (a bit like <<l´art pour l´art>>).

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Originally posted by lushmachine

Glad my metaphor was effective!

I like metaphors ... it's the philospher within me. The monks of Eiheiji would be proud.

I like metaphors too. In fact, sometimes I have to remind myself and be mindful to not use them as much as my normal inclination would have it. I work best non-linearly.


And someday you must tell me about the monks of Eiheiji...

/is patient

Before I begin, I want to take a moment to reflect upon the long, eloquent, articulate response I *originally* wrote to this, before I accidentally closed the window and dispersed it into the unread aether... AAAAAAHHHHRRGH.
:mauer: :mauer: :mauer:

*ahem!*

Ok then. I feel better. Moving right along...

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Originally posted by lushmachine
I find that friends of mine who don't enjoy Noise express they feel like they get lost within the dominant elements of the sounds. Like missing the forest for the trees.

Lost within the dominant elements of the sounds- *perfect* way to put it.
Though I'd say it's probably more like missing the trees for the forest.

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It also helps to be exposed to a variety of Noise so that it doesn't all sound the same. For instance, I enjoy noise that sounds more mechanical and metallic, so my ears tend to be better at criticizing something I like and have heard lots of.

Yes, exactly.

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I'm odd in that I don't watch music videos regularly since about 1990. Since then, I've seen less than a dozen music videos. I prefer to have my own mental visual when it comes to audio. I'd much rather enjoy album artwork or see a live performance.

***yes!***

My little inner Holley worlds I wander through when listening tend to be more interesting to me...

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Although I do understand the feeling. Sometimes I feel impolite to keep writing, especially when I hope not to offend anyone with my opinions.

Thank you for thanking me, heh!

Ends up take 2 of my response is significantly more succinct than the first one... which is fine, I think I went off on some tangent initially...

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Originally posted by Evolutz
As Ronan Harris says: "Sweden, the home of aesthetics."
Minimal and Noise aren´t my favorites, but surely there can be big art,
even though there isn´t much to hear at all (a bit like <<l´art pour l´art>>).

"Music is the space between the notes."
-Claude Debussy

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Originally posted by Evolutz
As Ronan Harris says: "Sweden, the home of aesthetics."
Minimal and Noise aren´t my favorites, but surely there can be big art,
even though there isn´t much to hear at all (a bit like <<l´art pour l´art>>).

Again, I apologise for dominating the thread (and yet still I babble! go figure!)...


Not sure I agree with you that minimalism/noise is like "l'art pour l'art". Good minimalism/noise, I mean. My subjective definition of "good" that is, if we really want to be specific. The same way I don't like Marilyn Manson as I don't get into shock for shock's sake (insert usual caveat here, heh, and not saying that's all there is to him), I don't get into noise for noise's sake.

I could be off base, but the idea of "l'art pour l'art" more reminds me of Dada, Fluxus, and surrealism in general as movements being they were definite reactions to the expressional climates they originated in, with the intention of confrontationally redefining the integrity of art, sometimes very playfully.

I see much of the noise/experimental/drone I like more as abstract expressionism, an audio version of a Mark Rothko painting, for example. It seems simple on the surface, but there is a wealth of complex emotion and texture when you look closely and allow yourself to be encompassed by it. It isn't narrative or even linear much of the time, but I definitely don't interpret it myself as being art for art's sake. Not what I think of initially with art for art's sake that is.

Even the interpretation of that phrase, l'art pour l'art we can debate and bat around... hmm...

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Originally posted by kleineRatte

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Original von ilex011
I see much of the noise/experimental/drone I like more as abstract expressionism, an audio version of a Mark Rothko painting, for example. It seems simple on the surface, but there is a wealth of complex emotion and texture when you look closely and allow yourself to be encompassed by it.

:perfekt:

Hello,


Here are my impressions.

1. The first time I listed to it, I just did not know what was going on. It was like hearing white noise.

2. The second time I wondered why it was so different to Covenant.

3. Then I got to the third time, (3 days later). I think I actually found some tones and hints of rythm buried in the middle of the clip.

4. Now it seems to me that there is some pattern, and like a trumpet, whose sound is increasing.

That was sound wise. But I guess there is no point in using pasive listening (thanks Ilex for the term!) for the music.. This raises other points: i.e. what is the artist trying to express? order in chaos? llowing the Ilex's comparison with Mark Rhothko, is he expressing something real and existing in everyone of us?


I guess that the best way to approach this is to follow nietzsche's advice: " A higher kind of human being, if I may say so, does not like "callings," precisely because he knows himself to be called. He has time, he takes time, he does not even think of "finishing": at thirty one is, in the sense of high culture, a beginner, a child... "


Finally, when I the song, it make me feel like I was in front of a rugged white wall - waiting to be crossed, just like one of those movies were the hero you just does not know what's in the other side...(exciting !)

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Originally posted by Megaprofit
Here are my impressions.
1. The first time I listed to it, I just did not know what was going on. It was like hearing white noise.

Which I would imagine is a common response if you haven't been exposed to a lot of music in the noise style before.

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2. The second time I wondered why it was so different to Covenant.

Probably in order to express musical inclinations that wouldn't fit with Covenant as a project, like J said. Frankly I'm happy that Cement doesn't sound like Covenant at all- I think I'd lose a little respect for Eskil as a musician if it did.
I think my first response would be "Hmm, this sounds just like Covenant and yet only his name is on it. Must be motivated by ego rather than a concern for the art." And that might make me a little grumpy if I thought about it too much.

But no, there's more to every musician's interest other than the main project they undertake and are best known for.

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3. Then I got to the third time, (3 days later). I think I actually found some tones and hints of rythm buried in the middle of the clip.

4. Now it seems to me that there is some pattern, and like a trumpet, whose sound is increasing.

Sometimes listening to experimental/noise/drone is more akin to reading a complex book as opposed to listening to other types of music. It's just more involved.

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That was sound wise. But I guess there is no point in using passive listening (thanks Ilex for the term!) for the music...

Yeah, pretty much. Though I admit that after I get to know a piece pretty well and feel particularly comfortable with it, sometimes I will actively listen and other times I'll put it on and go lay down, for example. Like a lullabye.

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This raises other points: i.e. what is the artist trying to express? order in chaos? llowing the Ilex's comparison with Mark Rothko, is he expressing something real and existing in everyone of us?

I guess that would depend on the emotional responses we get from the music. I believe the comparison with Rothko as far as intent probably ends here- Rothko was very concerned with actively communicating to his viewers human emotions in a very immediate and transcendental way. Hence his use of huge canvasses and encompassing color fields.
But he hated being referred to as a colorist, or even as an abstractionist- he felt that what he was trying to express was basic and direct, and his use of color and abstract style were merely vehicles for this as opposed to being methods to ruminate upon. He actually became very depressed and disillusioned towards the end of his life when he finally realized that most people didn't "get" it; that they couldn't see the trees for the forest.

So that was Rothko's intent. But what is a musician trying to communicate when a noise style is being utilized? I guess it depends on the musician. This is such a subjective style of music. I mean, I'm sure we can all agree that by and large the moods of more straightforward songs are, well, straightforward. But noise/drone is quite nebulous. Hence Subterfugue making some people feel irate and it making *me* feel happy.

This is actually a really interesting topic to discuss being it will inevitably end up going into to the psychology of music and how subjective that really is.

Emotional Expression in Music Performance: Between the Performer's Intention and the Listener's Experience (Psychology of Music, Vol. 24, No. 1, 68-91 (1996))
Some of the other abstracts are interesting as well. Would like to see more research done on this concerning experimental styles of music too.

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I guess that the best way to approach this is to follow nietzsche's advice: " A higher kind of human being, if I may say so, does not like "callings," precisely because he knows himself to be called. He has time, he takes time, he does not even think of "finishing": at thirty one is, in the sense of high culture, a beginner, a child... "

Methinks the Nietzsche doth protest too much. If the individual does not even think of finishing, even in the sense of high culture, one would hope that individual would also learn to embrace and treasure that which he truly is. I can't see any other way, especially if you *are* trying to infuse ultimate meaning into what you do- does that make sense? (I've never been fond of the whole tortured genius schtick).
Pardon, please, my tangent to the point.

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Finally, when I the song, it make me feel like I was in front of a rugged white wall - waiting to be crossed, just like one of those movies were the hero you just does not know what's in the other side...(exciting !)

Aaaaand we have liftoff!